Kenya Talks

[ole Nkarei]

http://standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2 ... trial-date

The ICC / Ocampo strategy increasing smacks suspiciously an acquiescence to building local political pressure and rapidly evolving Geopolitical realities. I am begining to have great doubts these trials are ever intended to proceed. And Uhuruto appear to have taken this into full stride and developing it carefully along - delay the process with legally sound arguments until well past the General Elections.

(I) Legal arguments that they will not proceed until full disclosure of evidence and witnesses to allow backgrounding and preparation of defense, and

(2) Ocampo's declaration that the full cooperation of GoK and Uhuruto will determined the Trial dates,

(3) disclosure of witnesses was not projected to take place in the present circumstances (which Uhuruto have created, in the first place) of the insecurity of these witnesses,

(4) the Brits annunciation of their determination these trials are processed to completion. They are masters of manipulation and double-speak afterall.

I see a gridlock to the process being intentionally created by all parties in this sad drama.

As concerns Kenya's withdrawal from the Rome Statutes, the import is not entirely on the fate of the Uhuruto, but on the future of the ICC. Kenya's withdrawal will most definitely trigger an Africa-wide withdrawal and undermine the very foundations and legitimacy of the Rome Statutes. After all, the ICC has not shown relevance in any other Sphere outside Africa. The recent developments in the AU and EAC in relations to African Judicial Response to crimes generally in the domain of the ICC in poignant with relevance.

[Reeves]

http://standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000059026&story_title=Cooperation-of-ICC-suspects-to-determine-trial-date

The ICC / Ocampo strategy increasing smacks suspiciously an acquiescence to building local political pressure and rapidly evolving Geopolitical realities. I am begining to have great doubts these trials are ever intended to proceed. And Uhuruto appear to have taken this into full stride and developing it carefully along - delay the process with legally sound arguments until well past the General Elections.

(I) Legal arguments that they will not proceed until full disclosure of evidence and witnesses to allow backgrounding and preparation of defense, and

(2) Ocampo's declaration that the full cooperation of GoK and Uhuruto will determined the Trial dates,

(3) disclosure of witnesses was not projected to take place in the present circumstances (which Uhuruto have created, in the first place) of the insecurity of these witnesses,

(4) the Brits annunciation of their determination these trials are processed to completion. They are masters of manipulation and double-speak afterall.

I see a gridlock to the process being intentionally created by all parties in this sad drama.

As concerns Kenya's withdrawal from the Rome Statutes, the import is not entirely on the fate of the Uhuruto, but on the future of the ICC. Kenya's withdrawal will most definitely trigger an Africa-wide withdrawal and undermine the very foundations and legitimacy of the Rome Statutes. After all, the ICC has not shown relevance in any other Sphere outside Africa. The recent developments in the AU and EAC in relations to African Judicial Response to crimes generally in the domain of the ICC in poignant with relevance.

Whats the point your trying to make Nkarei? Its not Clear. In the absence of the ICC, How do you propose we give justice to the Victims of the PEV seeing as the GOK refused to investigate the cases , and bring to book the perpetrators of the crimes comited during that time. It tiring really on my part to hear endless attacks on the ICC yet no one even pretended to make an effort to try and get a solution for the whole thing. The only sincere effort on the Part of the GoK is to try and save the 4 suspects...Correction One Suspect = One Uhuru Kenyatta...

[Kadudu]

You sure of that? Does Kenya have the political muscle to marshall all African countries to pull out of the Rome Statutes? I highly doubt that since Kenya is not known for having much political say apart from the EA region even excluding Tz.
Yes Kenya will withdraw but most likely nobody not even Uganda will follow.
Kibaki has been now almost 10 yrs prezzo and I have not seen him push through any international agenda even in Africa. Also he has no close buddies in the international scene.

As concerns Kenya's withdrawal from the Rome Statutes, the import is not entirely on the fate of the Uhuruto, but on the future of the ICC. Kenya's withdrawal will most definitely trigger an Africa-wide withdrawal and undermine the very foundations and legitimacy of the Rome Statutes.

[ole Nkarei]

You sure of that? Does Kenya have the political muscle to marshall all African countries to pull out of the Rome Statutes? I highly doubt that since Kenya is not known for having much political say apart from the EA region even excluding Tz.
Yes Kenya will withdraw but most likely nobody not even Uganda will follow.
Kibaki has been now almost 10 yrs prezzo and I have not seen him push through any international agenda even in Africa. Also he has no close buddies in the international scene.

As concerns Kenya's withdrawal from the Rome Statutes, the import is not entirely on the fate of the Uhuruto, but on the future of the ICC. Kenya's withdrawal will most definitely trigger an Africa-wide withdrawal and undermine the very foundations and legitimacy of the Rome Statutes.

@Kadudu - certainly you don't mean that expressing criticism of ICC handling of our quest for justice is manifestation of being pro-Uhuru or pro-ruto, or anti-reforms, or any the numerous other ''anti-this-or-that'' BS sprinkling online debates. And it is simplistic to expect all opinions to be uniform and in agreement.

You will not take it badly if I should suggest that you appear to be ignorant of the near-unanimous disquiet, expressed through several continent-wide foras of the African Union body-politik surrounding the Rome Statutes, particularly perceptions properly founded of a selective / skewed International jurisprudence at the ICC. Africa passed with near unanimity a binding resolution to dishonor summons and arrest warrants of Bashir nearly two years ago, and is presently tinkering at the highest judicial levels with subverting and circumventing the ICC with the present prosecutions before the ICC in mind. Considering that over 55% of the membership to the Rome Statutes are Africa States and that three of the five permanent VETO members to the UNSC that the ICC reports to are not themselves signatories to the Rome Statutes, a withdrawal of Africa as is presently under contemplation at the highest decision-making levels continental-wide, will without doubt kill the ICC dead.

That opinion in no way is to indicate I am anti-justice, anti-reform, anti-constitution, anti-RAO, anti-Ruto, ant-Uhuru, nor to vindicate any of the forces in these categories. Freedom of expression, eh?

@Reeves, dispensing ''Justice'' is not akin to dispensing self-gratification to anyone - victims or interested bystanders. It is apportioning guilt and punishment to those that are deserving of it through a process that is conclusively just. Hiyo tuu!!

[Kadudu]

ole Nikali, nobody here mentioned ODM or for that PNU.
Your reasoning all is about African countries finding a common path on the issue of Rome Statutes. Have you forgotten there are several countries like Cote D'voire, Sierra Leone, Uganda, DRC and a few others who are actually very much interested in the continuation of the ICC trials as they are affected countries? My issue is with Kibaki who after 9 yrs at the helm of Kenya will suddenly develop muscles to push through a tough igenda at the AU even as he in the past has hardly shoen any interest in foreign affairs.
Since charity begins at home Kibaki should first go to Tz and persuade Jakaya Kikwete to come up with such proposal at the next AU head of states meeting. Kikwete being one of the moderators of the peace accord in Kenya would be an ideal person to promote Africa's mass withdrawal from the Rome Statutes.

You sure of that? Does Kenya have the political muscle to marshall all African countries to pull out of the Rome Statutes? I highly doubt that since Kenya is not known for having much political say apart from the EA region even excluding Tz.
Yes Kenya will withdraw but most likely nobody not even Uganda will follow.
Kibaki has been now almost 10 yrs prezzo and I have not seen him push through any international agenda even in Africa. Also he has no close buddies in the international scene.

As concerns Kenya's withdrawal from the Rome Statutes, the import is not entirely on the fate of the Uhuruto, but on the future of the ICC. Kenya's withdrawal will most definitely trigger an Africa-wide withdrawal and undermine the very foundations and legitimacy of the Rome Statutes.

@Kadudu - certainly you don't mean that expressing criticism of ICC handling of our quest for justice is manifestation of being pro-Uhuru or pro-ruto, or anti-reforms, or any the numerous other ''anti-this-or-that'' BS sprinkling online debates. And it is simplistic to expect all opinions to be uniform and in agreement.

You will not take it badly if I should suggest that you appear to be ignorant of the near-unanimous disquiet, expressed through several continent-wide foras of the African Union body-politik surrounding the Rome Statutes, particularly perceptions properly founded of a selective / skewed International jurisprudence at the ICC. Africa passed with near unanimity a binding resolution to dishonor summons and arrest warrants of Bashir nearly two years ago, and is presently tinkering at the highest judicial levels with subverting and circumventing the ICC with the present prosecutions before the ICC in mind. Considering that over 55% of the membership to the Rome Statutes are Africa States and that three of the five permanent VETO members to the UNSC that the ICC reports to are not themselves signatories to the Rome Statutes, a withdrawal of Africa as is presently under contemplation at the highest decision-making levels continental-wide, will without doubt kill the ICC dead.

That opinion in no way is to indicate I am anti-justice, anti-reform, anti-constitution, anti-RAO, anti-Ruto, ant-Uhuru, nor to vindicate any of the forces in these categories. Freedom of expression, eh?

@Reeves, dispensing ''Justice'' is not akin to dispensing self-gratification to anyone - victims or interested bystanders. It is apportioning guilt and punishment to those that are deserving of it through a process that is conclusively just. Hiyo tuu!!

[Energizer]

Well said Colonel. I laugh sometimes when i see how otherwise very educated people fail to discern subtle deceit and betrayal being executed and played out by the Brits and the Americans. They have been doing it for eons, and are not about to stop; not when their political and economic interests are at stake. Those interests ALWAYS come first, regardless of whom they are in bed with. I would not even be surprised to discover they have reached some kind of secret deal with Kibaki, what with newly discovered oil and rare earth discoveries in Kenya?

http://standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000059026&story_title=Cooperation-of-ICC-suspects-to-determine-trial-date

The ICC / Ocampo strategy increasing smacks suspiciously an acquiescence to building local political pressure and rapidly evolving Geopolitical realities. I am begining to have great doubts these trials are ever intended to proceed. And Uhuruto appear to have taken this into full stride and developing it carefully along - delay the process with legally sound arguments until well past the General Elections.

(I) Legal arguments that they will not proceed until full disclosure of evidence and witnesses to allow backgrounding and preparation of defense, and

(2) Ocampo's declaration that the full cooperation of GoK and Uhuruto will determined the Trial dates,

(3) disclosure of witnesses was not projected to take place in the present circumstances (which Uhuruto have created, in the first place) of the insecurity of these witnesses,

(4) the Brits annunciation of their determination these trials are processed to completion. They are masters of manipulation and double-speak afterall.

I see a gridlock to the process being intentionally created by all parties in this sad drama.

As concerns Kenya's withdrawal from the Rome Statutes, the import is not entirely on the fate of the Uhuruto, but on the future of the ICC. Kenya's withdrawal will most definitely trigger an Africa-wide withdrawal and undermine the very foundations and legitimacy of the Rome Statutes. After all, the ICC has not shown relevance in any other Sphere outside Africa. The recent developments in the AU and EAC in relations to African Judicial Response to crimes generally in the domain of the ICC in poignant with relevance.