Kenya Talks

[RV Pundit]

You're the one hallucinating because you've created an island btw innocent till proven guilty and guilty;s something you call serious charges because of pre-trial; those are "technicalities" that are only relevant to ICC and their structures: Kenya criminal proceedings don't have pre-trial like ICC has or the US's prima facia.Right here..Once you are charged..you are charged. You can only invoke some section of penal code to stop the case if the prosecutor after having presented his case..doesn't show why you need to defend yourself.

If we had applied the same flawed argument then Ruto who was facing serious criminal proceedings on Ngong forest land case..would have ineligible...or just pick any random kenyan or MP with criminal cases..and you can easily knock out 800,000 folks still facing court cases.We have about 1M cases in the backlog.

Obviously that is balooney because all i need to bar you from running is to bribe Tobiko to bring triumphed charges (treason? is that serious? several counts of murder).

Nothing for instance stop Tobiko from going to court and charging Raila for criminal negligence or deliberate to kill Mau squatters...majority of whom continue to die as they are pounded by heavy rains on the roads the GOK dumped them on.

It amazing that people who have supposedly fought for democracy fear democracy so much; they would want somebody to be blocked.

And well i thought Raila was so popular of course deep down you know if these guys ran; Raila has no chance; If they do not ran; you think Mudavadi or Kalonzo are weaker...and Raila somehow has a chance.

There isn't a chance for Raila; if Ruto dies of whatever causes today; Kalenjin will NOT elect Raila; Ditto Kikuyus. In the end democracy must and has to prevail.

Pundit, you are hyperventilating. The constitution is the highest law of the land and not politics. The constitution sets the standard of the rules of political engagement. The constitution has set the eligibility requirements for those who wish to vie for elective office. One has to meet the requirements before one can be accorded the privilege of having their name on the ballot box. One can therefore be very popular but unless one meets the eligibility requirements then one cannot have their names placed on the ballot. Integrity is just one of such requirements. Other requirements include, age, citizenship, residency requirements, fees, etc. If one does not meet any of these requirements, then one is barred by the constitution from contesting. You can therefore have a very popular 20 year old who would be a shoe-in if his name were to be on the ballot but is constitutionally barred from running. Similarly you can have a very popular Uhuruto but are constitutionally barred from running because of their integrity is besmirched by the ICC trial. I understand how frustrating this maybe to you, but the law is the law my brada. If you can get a woman to make a credible allegation that Raila raped her and the prosecutor gathers enough evidence to send the case to trial then Raila would also be barred from running based on my reading of the law. The prosecutor or the accusers are not above the law and if they maliciously brings a rape case just to bar Raila from running then they would also be held criminally punishable by purjery laws and other laws against malicious prosecution. In the US and I believe in Kenya too, if the prosecutor is found to have brought a case with malicious intent, the penalty is pretty dire and I do not believe Tobiko will risk his neck for Uhuru. However, if there is a credible case of rape and murder or rape against Raila then he too should not run.

[Kichwa Mbaya]

Those are very legitimate issues which you have raised and there are solutions for them. This is why the case of Uhuruto will have to go to court so that the supreme court can interpret to us exactly what the integrity clause means and who is barred and who is not barred. The presumption of innocence is a different animal and is irrelevant to the integrity requirement. If the drafters only wanted those convicted to be barred from holding office, they would have said so but they did not for very good reasons. Constitutional interpretation is a technical legal process which judges and lawyers are trained to do. They will came up with a scheme which will guide us for years to come. The constitution is a living document and will be amendended and clarified with further legistlations and regulations. All the issues that you have raised will be brought up in the arguments to the courts and the judges will consider them and address them. This is why we have a supreme court with smart people to solve such problems.

Whether Raila can defeat Uhuru or Ruto is a different argument that we can indulge in at a different time. You may not believe me but the rule of law is more important to me than Raila's presidency. If Raila is charged with Rape and murder today, I would personally ask him to put the country before him and not run until his name is cleared.

[Energizer]

Well said. Simple common sense.

Only the most moronic don't see that this is a clear cut case. Uhuru and Ruto are eligible. Anything else would be giving Tobikos and Ocampo powers to decide political contests. If you think rape is serious..wait till Raila is charged with Rape. All it takes is for some police office to file charges in court of law. Obviously the issues is so clear cut only morons like terminator thing it even arguable.

When it comes to elective positions..the bar is deliberately lower...so as to take into consideration the fact that kenya is a democracy...the second line of the constitution. That people have the right to elect barnabas..a convicted felon if that is what they want. Nobody can save people from themselves. You may refuse ocampo two..and they go ahead to elect Mungiki leader Maina Njenga..or Kalenjin war monger? So what will you do?

When it comes to appointees..esp ones like judes..the bar is very high....a judge has to be like a ceasar wife..beyond reproach..beyond suspicion.And still PORK has the right to grant mercy whenever a Baraza send someone to gallows.

You cannot compare PS, Judge or a politician. Each of them have different standards of integrity. Think of your parent, your pastor and your teacher. The pastor is expected to be nearly flawless..the teacher just about..and the parent..is btw him/her and the family. How someone choose to ran his family is entirely his business..


Until morons here understands that; they will wallow in ignorance. Democracy is far from meritocracy. If you need the most qualified PORK; then election is one of the worse selection process; you do screening then interviews then vetting then appoint your next PORK.

Most morons here need to go back to FUNDAMENTALS. The BASICS of constitution. The basics of Modern Government. The basic of democracy. The basics of elections.

After setting the bar very high at 50% plus one kenya; That overrides anything; if 50% of kenya are prepared to have Hilter like the Germans were; nothing will stop them; They can even vote for PORK and ammend the katiba at one go.

If you want to see the cascading nature of standards and different officer holders; you can see how one is fired; judges enjoy security of tenure; the president can only be impeached; a civil servant is fired pronto; to become PORK is the hardest; even after you met eligibility; which is nothing; you have to win the confidence of 50 plus 1 % of kenyans;

[Kichwa Mbaya]

The constitution sets the bar for everything including politics, elections, voting, appointment of judges and other non-elective offices. When pundit says that the bar is delibeately lower, which clause of the constitution is he reffering to. You folks have been living with the laws of the jungle for too long and the change will be very difficult for you but it has to be done with you kicking and screaming.

Well said. Simple common sense.

Only the most moronic don't see that this is a clear cut case. Uhuru and Ruto are eligible. Anything else would be giving Tobikos and Ocampo powers to decide political contests. If you think rape is serious..wait till Raila is charged with Rape. All it takes is for some police office to file charges in court of law. Obviously the issues is so clear cut only morons like terminator thing it even arguable.

When it comes to elective positions..the bar is deliberately lower...so as to take into consideration the fact that kenya is a democracy...the second line of the constitution. That people have the right to elect barnabas..a convicted felon if that is what they want. Nobody can save people from themselves. You may refuse ocampo two..and they go ahead to elect Mungiki leader Maina Njenga..or Kalenjin war monger? So what will you do?

When it comes to appointees..esp ones like judes..the bar is very high....a judge has to be like a ceasar wife..beyond reproach..beyond suspicion.And still PORK has the right to grant mercy whenever a Baraza send someone to gallows.

You cannot compare PS, Judge or a politician. Each of them have different standards of integrity. Think of your parent, your pastor and your teacher. The pastor is expected to be nearly flawless..the teacher just about..and the parent..is btw him/her and the family. How someone choose to ran his family is entirely his business..


Until morons here understands that; they will wallow in ignorance. Democracy is far from meritocracy. If you need the most qualified PORK; then election is one of the worse selection process; you do screening then interviews then vetting then appoint your next PORK.

Most morons here need to go back to FUNDAMENTALS. The BASICS of constitution. The basics of Modern Government. The basic of democracy. The basics of elections.

After setting the bar very high at 50% plus one kenya; That overrides anything; if 50% of kenya are prepared to have Hilter like the Germans were; nothing will stop them; They can even vote for PORK and ammend the katiba at one go.

If you want to see the cascading nature of standards and different officer holders; you can see how one is fired; judges enjoy security of tenure; the president can only be impeached; a civil servant is fired pronto; to become PORK is the hardest; even after you met eligibility; which is nothing; you have to win the confidence of 50 plus 1 % of kenyans;

[Energizer]

By lower bar RV Pundit, in my opinion, simply means that sovereignty of the people reigns supreme through an election... not a process where you get the requisite 50%+1 and then you still have to go for further vetting by busybodies like parliamentary committees or the CJ and his Supreme court. 50%+1 is enough vetting and should be respected as per the constitution's preamble.. sovereign will of the people.

The constitution sets the bar for everything including politics, elections, voting, appointment of judges and other non-elective offices. When pundit says that the bar is delibeately lower, which clause of the constitution is he reffering to. You folks have been living with the laws of the jungle for too long and the change will be very difficult for you but it has to be done with you kicking and screaming.

Well said. Simple common sense.

Only the most moronic don't see that this is a clear cut case. Uhuru and Ruto are eligible. Anything else would be giving Tobikos and Ocampo powers to decide political contests. If you think rape is serious..wait till Raila is charged with Rape. All it takes is for some police office to file charges in court of law. Obviously the issues is so clear cut only morons like terminator thing it even arguable.

When it comes to elective positions..the bar is deliberately lower...so as to take into consideration the fact that kenya is a democracy...the second line of the constitution. That people have the right to elect barnabas..a convicted felon if that is what they want. Nobody can save people from themselves. You may refuse ocampo two..and they go ahead to elect Mungiki leader Maina Njenga..or Kalenjin war monger? So what will you do?

When it comes to appointees..esp ones like judes..the bar is very high....a judge has to be like a ceasar wife..beyond reproach..beyond suspicion.And still PORK has the right to grant mercy whenever a Baraza send someone to gallows.

You cannot compare PS, Judge or a politician. Each of them have different standards of integrity. Think of your parent, your pastor and your teacher. The pastor is expected to be nearly flawless..the teacher just about..and the parent..is btw him/her and the family. How someone choose to ran his family is entirely his business..


Until morons here understands that; they will wallow in ignorance. Democracy is far from meritocracy. If you need the most qualified PORK; then election is one of the worse selection process; you do screening then interviews then vetting then appoint your next PORK.

Most morons here need to go back to FUNDAMENTALS. The BASICS of constitution. The basics of Modern Government. The basic of democracy. The basics of elections.

After setting the bar very high at 50% plus one kenya; That overrides anything; if 50% of kenya are prepared to have Hilter like the Germans were; nothing will stop them; They can even vote for PORK and ammend the katiba at one go.

If you want to see the cascading nature of standards and different officer holders; you can see how one is fired; judges enjoy security of tenure; the president can only be impeached; a civil servant is fired pronto; to become PORK is the hardest; even after you met eligibility; which is nothing; you have to win the confidence of 50 plus 1 % of kenyans;

[Reeves]

The problem with the G7/8/N and its supporters is that they are too hot headed, to quick to speak and hardly listen to wise counsel. When will these guys grow up and learn?

[RV Pundit]

Kichwa don't argue for sake of arguments. Some state and public office have to meet the very basic qualification and they go for elections; Mps;sneator;governor; pork; The bar is lower because the mwananichi will do the vetting.

Some state officer go through parliament then pork;

Some go through JSC then parliament then PORK.

Some are appointed directly by PORK or Minister.

Mp, PORK and Councillor will be vetted directly by Wananinchi. People will get chance to vote for somebody or against somebody for no reason at all. That is one hell of vetting.

[Kichwa Mbaya]

Please cite the law that you are reffering to and stop making things up as you go. Only the court can make those kinds of determination with the backing of sound legal reasoning. If eligibility requirement is for everyone holding elective or public office then it must be applied across the board unless the supreme court says which office is exempt and which one is not based on a clear intepretation of the drafters intent.

One must first meet the constitutional requirements for holding office before one can even get the opportunity be on te ballot paper and be voted in or out by the wanaichi. Everybody running is presumed to be a potential winner and therefore they must meet the constitutional requirements for holding that office as a candidate. If one has a defect which disqualifies them from holding the office then that defect also disqualifies them from being placed on the ballot paper in the first place. Everybody, including the voters must adhere to the constitutional requirements. Your arguements seems to suggest that the voters can veto the constitution. The voters can amend the constitution but once the constitution is in place they cannot veto it or overide the constitution.

[Terminator]

Why not 50+1% and at least 25% in a certain number of counties? Why not 50+1% and a character beyond reproach? Do we all get to cherry pick which parts of the constitutions matter?

By lower bar RV Pundit, in my opinion, simply means that sovereignty of the people reigns supreme through an election... not a process where you get the requisite 50%+1 and then you still have to go for further vetting by busybodies like parliamentary committees or the CJ and his Supreme court. 50%+1 is enough vetting and should be respected as per the constitution's preamble.. sovereign will of the people.

The constitution sets the bar for everything including politics, elections, voting, appointment of judges and other non-elective offices. When pundit says that the bar is delibeately lower, which clause of the constitution is he reffering to. You folks have been living with the laws of the jungle for too long and the change will be very difficult for you but it has to be done with you kicking and screaming.

Well said. Simple common sense.

[Kichwa Mbaya]

Pundit's arguement is based on the premise that the voters have the veto power to overide, or bypass the constitution. He seems to be advocating for the principals of the long discredited "tyranny of the majority" because it favors his tribal mathemetics. Pundit forgets that Kenyans themselves wrote this constitution and passed it so that they can live with its mandate as the highest law in the land only subject to amendments and not whimsical vetoes by popular votes. Mankind figured outa long time ago that majority decisions are not neccessarily the best decisions and that is why it is clearly delineated in most democracies the kinds of decisions which requires voting and those which are made by judges and certain individuals. Imagine if the issue of integrity was left to the voters to decide as pundito seem to suggest, murderers and rapists would be running our country so long a they have gazzalions of ill gotten money or because they came from numerically superior tribes. Kenyans have said NO to jungle politics and we are moving into the era of mordern, multiparty, and constitutional democracy.

[Energizer]

Again, sovereign will of the people...50%+1 plus 25% in at least 24 counties. What more vetting do you require after that? Part of the Preamble to the consitution says:

We, the people of Kenya—

RECOGNISING the aspirations of all Kenyans for a government based on the essential values of human rights, equality, freedom, democracy, social justice and the rule of law:

EXERCISING our sovereign and inalienable right to determine the form of governance of our country and having participated fully in the making of this Constitution:

ADOPT, ENACT and give this Constitution to ourselves and to our future generations.[/quote]

The same constitution further asserts:

CHAPTER ONE––SOVEREIGNTY OF THE PEOPLE AND SUPREMACY OF THIS CONSTITUTION

1. (1) All sovereign power belongs to the people of Kenya and shall be exercised only in accordance with this Constitution.

(2) The people may exercise their sovereign power either directly or through their democratically elected representatives.

Also:

CHAPTER NINE—THE EXECUTIVE

Part 1—Principles and Structure of the National Executive

129. (1) Executive authority derives from the people of Kenya and shall be exercised in accordance with this Constitution.

Why not 50+1% and at least 25% in a certain number of counties? Why not 50+1% and a character beyond reproach? Do we all get to cherry pick which parts of the constitutions matter?

By lower bar RV Pundit, in my opinion, simply means that sovereignty of the people reigns supreme through an election... not a process where you get the requisite 50%+1 and then you still have to go for further vetting by busybodies like parliamentary committees or the CJ and his Supreme court. 50%+1 is enough vetting and should be respected as per the constitution's preamble.. sovereign will of the people.

[Terminator]

Energizer,

Why not just 50+1% end of? Why 25% in at least 24 counties? 50+1% is the majority. No?

[RV Pundit]

Even after two millennium preeaching against satan if he came down people would want him lynched.I'm not a chirstian but I trust in good people triumph over evil.chapter six or not an evil will never be elected freely and fairly

[Kichwa Mbaya]

The constitution is the vehicle or the mechanism or the medium through which the poeople exercise their soverignity. This is why the constitution which is the highest law of the land because it is made by the people directly and not the parliament or the judges. It is the constitution that requires integrity as a prerequisite for holding public offices. If the people wanted to the constitution to say that whomever gets 51% of the votes will be considered to be a person of integrity then the people would have done that. In this instant it is the people who determined that those vieing for office should be vetted first and ready to assume the honor of holding the public office before their names are placed on the ballot. Where were they when the constitution was being written or when it was being passed. The bad habit of changing the rules in the middle of the game needs to stop and folks need to respect the law.

Again, sovereign will of the people...50%+1 plus 25% in at least 24 counties. What more vetting do you require after that? Part of the Preamble to the consitution says:

We, the people of Kenya—

RECOGNISING the aspirations of all Kenyans for a government based on the essential values of human rights, equality, freedom, democracy, social justice and the rule of law:

EXERCISING our sovereign and inalienable right to determine the form of governance of our country and having participated fully in the making of this Constitution:

ADOPT, ENACT and give this Constitution to ourselves and to our future generations.

The same constitution further asserts:

CHAPTER ONE––SOVEREIGNTY OF THE PEOPLE AND SUPREMACY OF THIS CONSTITUTION

1. (1) All sovereign power belongs to the people of Kenya and shall be exercised only in accordance with this Constitution.

(2) The people may exercise their sovereign power either directly or through their democratically elected representatives.

Also:

CHAPTER NINE—THE EXECUTIVE

Part 1—Principles and Structure of the National Executive

129. (1) Executive authority derives from the people of Kenya and shall be exercised in accordance with this Constitution.

Why not 50+1% and at least 25% in a certain number of counties? Why not 50+1% and a character beyond reproach? Do we all get to cherry pick which parts of the constitutions matter?

By lower bar RV Pundit, in my opinion, simply means that sovereignty of the people reigns supreme through an election... not a process where you get the requisite 50%+1 and then you still have to go for further vetting by busybodies like parliamentary committees or the CJ and his Supreme court. 50%+1 is enough vetting and should be respected as per the constitution's preamble.. sovereign will of the people.

[/quote]

[Terminator]

Chapter Six is there to prevent Kenyans from electing saints like Adolph Hitler. The constitution represents Kenyan people's wishes, if you might recall.

Even after two millennium preeaching against satan if he came down people would want him lynched.I'm not a chirstian but I trust in good people triumph over evil.chapter six or not an evil will never be elected freely and fairly